Posts by Faithful Witness

10

Do Governing Body members only give talks in TOP resort/travel destinations?

by EndofMysteries in

i hear of governing body members giving talks in europe, san diego, etc.

how about they instead focus on places like detroit, that they are promoting so much?

anybody else notice they never seem to appear at the places that are not top travel destinations?.

Faithful Witness

OTWO: I really hope you are wrong... My parents will be there.

Although, according to my mom, the video about Detroit was pretty enticing! He won't be disappointed.

12

JWs and the idea of a cult

by dabster in

as i've been chatting with a jw neighbour he has said, "heck, some people think we are a cult!

" and scoffs at very idea.

how ludicrous (he thinks)!

Soon, we will be seeing subtle hints in the mags, grooming them for the next phase (and new light, possibly leading up to their big mysterious instructions, which I think might be something along the lines of separating themselves even farther from outsiders)...

A future Watchtower study article, which will outline the benefits of belonging to a cult:

"What Is a Cult? The Truth About Jehovah's Organization. What Will You Say?"

As long as they are teaching the truth from the Bible, I don't think the JW's will even blink if they start admitting they are in a cult. What a privilege, to be labeled with such distinction... What better proof could there be, that they are the TRUE followers of Jehovah?

10

Do Governing Body members only give talks in TOP resort/travel destinations?

by EndofMysteries in

i hear of governing body members giving talks in europe, san diego, etc.

how about they instead focus on places like detroit, that they are promoting so much?

anybody else notice they never seem to appear at the places that are not top travel destinations?.

Faithful Witness

Great question! From what I heard, the facilities in Detroit are exquisite! They should come and see it...

News of such a "presence" as a GB member, would definitely increase the hotel bookings!

29

TTATT in a Can... finally finished!!

by ILoveTTATT in

jw
friends

ok so... how to condense all the flip-flops and doctrinal changes, and show graphically how the different doctrines changed, and when?.

ttatt in a can!!.

enjoy ;).

Faithful Witness

Wow! Thank you putting this together.

18

How long have you been an online "apostate?"

by Faithful Witness in

jw
friends

i really do not like that word (apostate), as used to represent someone who decided to remove themselves, or was removed from the influence of the watchtower... but i am curious.. how long have websites like these been in existence?

when did this movement begin?.

personally, how long did it take for you to dare exploring information outside the watchtower publications, about jehovah's witnesses (especially online)?.

Faithful Witness

I really do not like that word (apostate), as used to represent someone who decided to remove themselves, or was removed from the influence of the Watchtower... but I am curious.

How long have websites like these been in existence? When did this movement begin?

Personally, how long did it take for you to dare exploring information outside the Watchtower publications, about Jehovah's Witnesses (especially online)?

We studied for quite some time, and I do remember how they told me in one of those early lessons, that there are ALL KINDS of rumors and lies about JW's. When people hear you're studying the bible with us, they might try to stop you. Who do you think is motivated to stop you from studying about what the Bible REALLY teaches? That warning stuck with me for a long time, although it is embarrassing to admit now. (Not that I thought it was actually Satan, but I sort of bought into their reasoning about people lying about them).

Even after we discovered some TTATT, and decided not to study and attend meetings anymore, I just removed myself from the whole idea. It took some turmoil and problems from our JW family, in order for me to do any online research. I was away from the JW's for about 2 years, before I even began looking online for information. I had no idea that there were so many people affected by the judgmental and hypocritical practices of the Watchtower Society. Not sure why I was so clueless, but I guess it had to affect me personally, in order for me to start caring.

How long has the TRUTH been out here? (It took me long enough, but I'm glad I found it before it was too late)

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

So, in response to her repeated question, "Have we come to you, and taught you anyting that was not true in the bible?"

I said, "Well, there is that thing claim that Jesus told us to call God 'Jehovah.' I don't agree that it should be added to the New Testament. After Jesus came, HIS name was put above ALL names..."

She then said, "We aren't pronouncing Jesus's name right either, so maybe we should take His name out of the bible! Would that be the answer?"

I said, "No... I am not disagreeing with the use of the name in the OT. I just don't see where Jesus told us to call God by his name. He called him Father."

"He said He came to sanctify God's name. I showed you where He said He had come to make His Father's name known."

"But he didn't tell us how to pronounce it... and there is no record of Jesus ever actually saying the name."

Miss K then opens her grey bible, and starts looking up the reasoning behind adding the divine name to the NT. We start reading it together, and she says, "I have not read this yet, so I don't know what is in here..."

We read the intro and the first 2 bullet points, and she paused. I went back and was reading, and how it stated that there was a discovery of "some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint that existed in Jesus's day, discovered in the mid-20th century." (some, not how many or any other description here... how do they know they were from Jesus's day? Not specified). "So, in Jesus's day, the scriptures did contain the personal name of God." Then it goes on to say how the name was removed, and the history of the Jews and how Acts 15:14 states that "God had taken a people for his name."

This is where they call upon logic, to reason that James would not make such a statement if no one in the first century knew or used God's personal name.

Logically...

So I asked her, "So are they saying that there was no accurate bible, until the mid-20th century?"

"No. It doesn't say that!"

I asked, "Doesn't God have the power to preserve his word?"

"Jesus said that his word would be corrupted after His death..."

I asked, "So, is the bible true or not?" She said it was.

She then said something about there being a difference between a "version," like the KJV or NIV, and a "translation." She brought out her big blue book, and showed me a flow chart that showed where they got their bible translation from. I asked her who did the translating, and she gave me the JW answer about men "not wanting to be glorified." (or accountable, however you want to look at it...)

Then she asked me who wrote the KJV. I said I didn't know, but that my friend that I mentioned, and her husband have done some extensive research on bible translations. I told her that the KJV was actually the only version of the bible that is not copyrighted. If you want to make copies of the KJV, you can. You can copy as much or as little as you want, and you can even sell it! If you want to make any changes, or print your own bible, you need a copyright. In order to get a copyright on a new bible, you have to change a certain percentage of the text in order to qualify for a copyright.

She admitted she didn't know anything about that. Then she asked me if the KJV was accurate. Why did they take out the name of Jehovah 7000 times?? I explained that I wasn't defending any translation or version of the bible, but pointing out the fact that they needed to make significant changes to their new translation of the NWT, in order to get that copyright. And I added that some of the changes made DID actually change the meanings. They did take out parts, and even added things, like Jehovah's name, for example... where there was no record of it in original manuscripts.

Then she told me how the fact that JW's have been spreading the name of Jehovah, has made the church actually start using his name also. It turns out that the JW's are the ones who have told everyone what God's name is! Hallejuiah! Seeeee!! WE are the truth! blink blink

I pointed out the change that had been made, in removing the brackets in the text. The old NWT had brackets to indicate where the translators had added words. The new version removed those brackets, so the words just look like they were there all along. I pointed out that sometimes those words could change the meaning. Miss W seemed to have heard about this, because she said "but aren't they usually articles, like 'a' and 'the'?" I admitted that I hadn't done a lot of research on specifics, although I had found a few, and it really did have changes made.

I showed her how in the KJV, it has italicized the words that were not in the original manuscripts. When I read it, I can tell what words were added. Miss K asked if that was ok, in my opinion... I said yes, since I could identify what was added. So she asked me if the KJV was completely accurate and true.

I said, "Maybe NONE of it is true! Should we just throw it out the window?" The argument that there was corruption in one version, but corrected by unidentified "scholars" in the 20th century, was supposed to be proof that her bible was more accurate, even though they admitted they had made logical assumptions to make changes (in order to get a new copyright).

She gasped... "We're not saying that!" hahaha (last week, she had told me we could use any version of the bible that we wanted to use...)

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

An interesting and quirky anecdote, inserted in the conversation here by Miss W, who comes along as backup and is mostly quiet during the discussion.

She was talking about those big birds, the buzzards or vultures that eat dead bodies. We live in Michigan, and we don't see them a lot around here. I did see a couple last week, and I suspect that maybe it is because they are eating the leftover dead animals that are just now uncovered from the massive amount of snow we had this winter. We found a skull in our yard, probably from a raccoon. I'm sure the winter was very hard on the wildlife, too... but I haven't really thought about the birds. I just see the deer carcasses in the ditches and in the fields.

She said, "Well, I was talking to ___ the other day, and she was saying how she had seen more of them recently. Then we were together, and we saw a group of about EIGHT of them! We looked at each other, and said, 'Is this another sign of the END??!' "

I gave her an inquisitive look, and she shrunk a little in her chair, "You know, how the birds are going to feast on all the dead bodies at Armageddon..."

It was kind of awkward, and I guess no one wanted to go there (duh!) ... so I chuckled a little and said, "A little JW humor..." (smile)

It was kind of comical, but also made me feel so sorry for this poor woman. No wonder she is plagued with all these ailments, that keep her from serving as Jehovah intended... Maybe if she didn't spend so much time worrying, she would have the vitality to be a full time pioneer!!

They have not made any claims about being "happy," but if the truth is that scary, that it is causing delusions and day-mares... wow.

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

Blondie: Thanks for those references! Great points. I am learning a lot from this lady, and yesterday she told me she is enjoying the challenge, and the chance to defend her beliefs.

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

Robert: She asked me if I wanted to continue, and I said I had to think about it. I told her I have been tossing it around in my mind, since the only in-depth perspective I have taken on "the bible" was using that guide published by the Watchtower. I feel that I need a better bible foundation, before I can really discuss things with her fairly. Right now, we have left it open-ended. I told her I would get back to her, and she said she'd check with me later in the week.

She really wants me to go through the Bible Teach book with her again, and I have to consider that. (I have a friend who is severely warning me to stay away from her, for my own protection... and I even told her that. She was very curious about my friend, and her beliefs. I told her I wasn't going to defend someone else's beliefs, as she started picking her apart).

Searcher: I tested the waters yesterday, when I told them I had read some of the recent articles. "I know what kind of things are being said about anyone who dares to question things." (we have agreed that we are only discussing what the bible says, so quoting the Watchtower is not going to work).

I even confessed that we had attended the meetings where they made adjustments last fall. I told her how curious it was, to see people suddenly come to life, when they got to the questions about the preaching WORK.

She quickly jumped in and asked me if she and Miss W had come and told her anything that was not found in the bible. (sigh)

It was somewhere around this time, when she opened the apostate door again for me. She said, "I know there is so much information on the internet... and I can tell you that 95% of it is lies." She also mentioned news or TV shows.

I didn't let her get away with that again. So I said, "Like what? What is one of the lies being spread on the internet?"

She paused to think of her answer. I was hoping for something juicy, but no... "Like that JW's don't belive in Jesus." (sigh again... REALLY? Please use google next time and get back to me with a different lie to defend!)

When she was trying to convince me to go through the Bible Teach book with her, I reminded her that I've done that whole book already. I told her what our experience was, with our first teacher. We got to the end of the book, and stumbled upon a video of an old Christian talk show. John Ankerberg was interviewing a panel of former Jehovah's witnesses. The things they said made our jaws drop. "I remember, I was bawling and saying that there had to be an explanation for the things they were saying..." I could tell they were getting nervous, so I didn't talk about anything that was said. I told her we were hoping that Elder E had a good explanation, so we showed him the video. After about 5 minutes, he said, "Oh, they are APOSTATES!!!" and he turned his back and refused to address anything these people were saying. I said to Miss K, "One of the ladies was of the annointed class. One man had worked for the writitng department, answering people's letters. There was another couple that was prominent in the organization. They were still Christians, and seemed like honest and sincere people. They were JW's! Just because they are no longer JW's, that means that everything they say is a lie???" I told her how Elder E had started going on about how these people were "fornicators! idolators! liars!" Then I did mention that we had asked him if he could get us a copy of the article about 1975, the magazine that the man was holding up... at this point, Miss W jumped in and said, "There were NEVER any predictions made about 1975!" I didn't push it, but I did want to ask her why she was in such a hurry to get baptized in 1973. (I know you are 75'ers... but we won't go there, when I don't have to prove anything in the past was wrong. What you are teaching today has enough holes).

She didn't really answer any of those concerns, but later said, "It sounds like some trust has been violated." I'm pretty sure she was talking about what I had told her about Elder E.

A few times she said, "It seems like there are some FLAGS being raised in your mind about the JW's." I kept hoping that she would say something like, "there's nothing wrong with being in a cult, if it pleases Jehovah..." hahaha I didn't go for the throat.

I do understand that Jesus told them to go and make disciples, and preach to the far corners of the earth. He did not, however, tell them to write it down and report it back to their congregation, so they could keep track. She did mention the numbers that were recorded, about how many were baptized, how many were at pentecost. I added, but there are no specific instructions from Jesus or even Paul, that they should continue to track their efforts and report how much time they are spending spreading the good news. "No, but Jehovah DID use specific men, and the people were supposed to follow their instructions..."

One other thing she brought up, and I think it was when we were still discussing whether Jesus actually told them to call Jehovah "Father," or by his name. She mentioned the Lord's Prayer. (she didn't know the whole thing by heart... I found that interesting). She said, "Do you think people realize what they are actually praying for, when they recite that prayer?" I gave her a puzzled look.

"Our Father, in the heavens, let your name be sanctified, Let your Kingdom come... Do they really think about what they are praying for?"

I said it was a nice prayer to say in unison with a large group, but most people do not probably think about that part of the prayer, no.

She said, "Do you think they realize that they are actually praying for Jehovah to cause destruction to this system, and that so many people are going to die at Armageddon before the Kingdom will be restored?" or something like that... like the people are praying for their own destruction. Did you ever think of that?? (No, most people don't think of the kingdom coming that way... I'd have to agree... haha)

I said, "I like the part about forgiveness, where we ask for forgiveness and remind ourselves to forgive each other. Forgiveness is one of the main points of that prayer, since that is what Christ came here to do for us."

This was leading into our discussion about why they decided to add Jehovah's name to the New Testament (and other changes in their new translation of the NWT).

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

The whole time, she kept repeating how we get to the FATHER through JESUS... no one can get to JEHOVAH without JESUS.

She snuck in a few comments about those that Jesus was working with today, and did bring me to a few verses that showed where Jesus was going to give his authority and power BACK to God later.

But I must say, she really played the Jesus card.